Discussion:
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
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d***@bellsouth.net
2007-04-29 09:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe


A movie had just been released that is billed as "the beginning" of
"The Texas Chainsaw Massacre." This cult classic, along with Alfred
Hitchcock's masterpiece, "Psycho" and other films, was inspired by the
crimes of Ed Gein.

This seems like a appropriate time to review the life of Ed Gein or
perhaps more pertinently, "the beginning" of his ghastly life. Ed Gein
is the classic case of a man driven "psycho" by a woman - his mother,
Augusta Gein.

Gein's crimes came to light in 1957.

Bernice Worden was a stocky, bespectacled middle-aged woman who ran a
store in the hamlet of Plainfield, Wisconsin, a town that had only
several hundred residents. Her adult son, Deputy Sheriff Frank Worden,
discovered her missing from the store. He looked for her and found the
cash register missing. Then he saw that the area around the counter
was ominously spattered with blood.

Mr. Worden phoned other officers and said, "He's done something to
her." They asked who and he replied, "Eddie Gein."

Gein seemed an odd person to finger as a potential abductor. He was a
pleasant, shy, well-mannered bachelor. He only drank an occasional
beer. He never swore.

However, Frank Worden suspected him because Bernice had complained
about his pestering to get her to go out with him.

Of course it was Gein as a horrified world would soon learn. Gein had
shot and killed Bernice Worden, decapitated her, and hung the headless
body upside down from the rafters of his kitchen. It soon emerged
that Gein was also the killer of Mary Hogan, a middle-aged tavern
owner, who had disappeared from a nearby town a few years earlier.

Other murders would be attributed to him but these are the only he is
known with certainty to have committed.

Perhaps even more shocking than the two killings was the state of Ed
Gein's home. Most of the abode was filthy and cluttered but what it
was cluttered with made the normal mind reel as Gein had filled his
house with body parts taken from grave robberies. The body parts had
been taken from the graves of middle-aged and older women.

This extraordinarily sensational case would be even more
sensationalized with wide reports of cannibalism. However, Harold
Schechter, who wrote "Deviant: The Shocking True Story of Ed Gein, the
Original 'Psycho," has stated that there is no evidence that Gein ever
ate human flesh. Perhaps the perception of Gein-the-cannibal is a
result of seeing him as such a monster that every possible monstrosity
was attributed to him.

One part of the house Gein's house not cluttered. The bedroom and
parlor of Augusta Gein, Ed Gein's deceased mother, the area had been
sealed off from the rest of the dwelling. When it was exposed to
view, was found to be perfectly tidy. As Schecter astutely wrote,
"After the unholy squalor of the rest of the house, the very neatness
of these rooms was intensely unsettling." Alfred Hitchcock captured
that sense of eeriness in "Psycho" when Lila Crane (Vera Miles)
ventures into the room of Norman Bates' "Mother."

The origin of Ed Gein's madness turned out to lie in the overly close
relationship of Ed to his beloved mother, Augusta.

Edward Theodore Gein was born in Le Crosse, Wisconsin August 27, 1906,
the second child of George and Augusta Gein.

George Gein was a hard drinking man who drifted from job to job,
selling insurance, doing carpentry and working as a tanner, in a power
plant, and at a railway. Despite his boozing, George had a ramrod
straight posture and dignified manner that could make a positive
impression.

At 24, George met a 19-year-old named Augusta upon whom he evidently
made such an impression.

Augusta was a large-breasted, heavyset young woman with a broad face.
She had been brought up in a deeply religious Lutheran household.
Augusta had been especially close to her strict father who took
seriously the Biblical injunction that to "spare the rod" is to "spoil
the child."

George and Augusta Gein married December 4, 1899. The marriage was
troubled from the start. George's drinking meant he had trouble
keeping a job. He drank the couple's money away and Augusta furiously
derided him. Not a verbal person, George responded to her tirades by
alternating giving her the silent treatment or hitting her.

Their sex life was never good, in part because of Augusta's extreme
beliefs on the subject. She believed fornication and adultery were the
worst of sins. She saw sex even within marriage as a distasteful, an
expression of a husband's vile lust and a duty a wife performed for
the sake of procreation. For all her Bible reading, Augusta appeared
to have overlooked or disregarded the Song of Solomon with is richly
sensuous and frankly erotic paean to sexual desire and enjoyment
between husband and wife. Nor does she appear to have realized the
full implications of the phrase in Genesis describing married people
as "one flesh."

However, Augusta yearned for a baby so she did her sexual duty,
distasteful as it was.

George and Augusta's first son, Henry, was born January 17, 1902.

His birth gave Augusta someone upon whom to lavish affection but it
did not improve the Gein marriage. George Gein continued to bounce
from job to job and Augusta continued to harangue him.

Augusta decided that the solution to George's employmnet difficulties
was for him to go into business for himself. In 1909, George became
the owner of a small grocery store. A classic "mom and pop" operation,
Augusta did much of the work as George would not give up liquor and
apply himself to the business.

The birth of Henry had not assuaged Augusta's longings. She believed
it might be because he was a boy. Augusta was a man-hater but her
misandry does not appear to have been "feminist." Rather, her severe
anti-sexual feelings led her to hate men because they caroused around,
committing fornication and adultery. Her stern religiosity led her to
despise the sex that so frequently took the Lord's name in vain.

Augusta believed a little girl would be much easier to bring up in
what she considered traditionally proper ways. A female would be far
more likely to be chaste and pious, sober and obedient.

She again allowed George to have sex and again got pregnant. She
prayed for a girl.

But she gave birth to Edward Theodore Gein.

She was bitterly disappointed when she learned her child was a boy.
However, as Schechter writes, "Augusta was not the kind to give in to
despair. She was made of stronger stuff. And so she took the swaddled
newborn in her arms and made a sacred vow. This one would not grow up
to be like all the rest of them. Men. Those lustful, swearing, foul-
mouthed creatures who made use of women's bodies in such filthy ways,
This one, she promised, would be different. Augusta would see to
that."

When the adult Ed Gein was asked about his mother, tears would
inevitably fill his eyes. She was so good, he would say, so pure and
pious. She was exactly what a woman should be.

When Eddie was seven, Augusta decided that the family must leave La
Crosse. She believed the city was a latter-day Sodom and Gomorrah,
full of fornication and adultery. Her sons must not be exposed to such
degradation as she was determined to bring them up to be free of
sexual sin.

The Geins had accumulated enough money to purchase a small farm. Late
in 1913, the family bought a small dairy farm about forty miles east
of La Crosse.

For reasons that are not known, the family moved again in 1914 to a
farm in Plainfield.

Augusta was pleased with the most recent acquisition. The farm was 195
acres and boasted a fairly nice two-story house along with a barn, a
chicken coop, and an equipment shack.

Its isolation was a big plus because here Augusta could keep her
precious sons safe from the temptations of Plainfield itself. She
believed sinful, ungodly activities, particularly sexual activities,
were rampant in the town.

A fastidious housekeeper, Augusta kept the home squeaky clean and neat
as a pin. She believed in the maxim that "cleanliness is next to
godliness" and no one was more determined to be godly than Augusta
Gein.

Although Augusta wanted to keep her boys as far away from earthly
temptations as she could, there was no way to avoid sending them to
school since it was compulsory.

Little Eddie was an average student. He soon acquired a special
fondness for reading that he would maintain throughout his life.

However, he did not enjoy school. As Schecter writes, Eddie "had a
fat, fleshy growth on the corner of his left eyelid. It wasn't really
disfiguring, but it made his eyelid droop." Some children teased
Eddie about the eyelid. He was shy and hung back from groups. He could
not make friends.

Occasionally, he would find a child that he hoped to befriend. When he
got home, he would tell Mom about the kid. She would inevitably raise
objections, saying the proposed pal was from a family with a bad
reputation.

The marriage between George and Augusta, never warm, was getting
increasingly fractious. He retreated into drink and she into an ever
more fervent and narrow religiousness. Fights were frequent and bitter
but divorce was out of the question. As Schecter notes, "Divorce was
unthinkable, a fundamental violation of her religious beliefs." To
Augusta Gein, life was not something to be enjoyed but a series of
burdens to be borne. She did her duty no matter what.

As Henry and Ed grew into adolescence, Augusta made an extra effort to
ensure these boys did not fall into the ways of sin like other young
men. Modern women were a bunch of brazen hussies, she would tell the
boys, and these evil creatures must be righteously shunned.

Often Augusta read out loud to Henry and Ed directly from the Bible.
Almost always, she read warnings against lustful iniquity.

A favorite passage was Revelation 17: 3-5. It stated, "So he carried
me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon
a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven
heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet
colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a
golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her
fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, 'MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE
EARTH."

Augusta also liked to recite Proverbs 5:3-4 to her sons:
"The lips of a strange woman drop honey,
And her mouth is smoother than oil;
But her latter end is bitter as wormwood,
Sharp as a two-edged sword."

Augusta frequently asked her sons to swear that they would remain
sexually pure. The dutiful boys affirmed that they would.

In 1940, George Gein passed away at the age of 66. It is unlikely he
was deeply mourned by his widow or sons. In 1942, 36-year-old Ed Gein
got a draft notice. He went to Milwaukee for the physical exam and
the military rejected him due to the growth on his eyelid because it
caused slight problems with his vision.

Back to home, Henry, and Mom. In 1944, Henry was killed in a brush
fire near the Gein farmhouse. Although later many suspected Ed, it was
never proven that he caused his brother's death.

So then it was just Ed and Mom. As Tony Perkins playing Gein-inspired
Norman Bates in "Psycho" would say, "A boy's best friend is his
mother" and they were each other's primary company.

However, Augusta suffered a stroke soon after her elder's son
unexpected death. She was able to come home from the hospital but was
disabled. Ed tended to her every need. As she had so often read the
Bible to her sons, she now requested that Ed read it to her as he sat
by her bedside.

Under Eddie's dedicated ministrations, Augusta began to recover. She
was back to walking and even doing some household and farm chores. It
was 1945 and Augusta noted that they needed straw.

Eddie and Augusta went to a neighbor named Smith to buy it. When their
vehicle pulled into Smith's yard, they saw him violently beating a dog
with a stick. A woman came out of the house and screamed at Smith to
leave the poor pooch alone. Smith beat the dog to death.

Augusta was extremely upset by this scene. What bothered her did not
appear to be the brutality toward the dog but the presence of the
woman. Augusta told Ed that the woman was not married to Smith and so
had no business being there. "Smith's harlot," Augusta angrily called
her.

It always seemed to Ed that Augusta's emotional upheaval over this
apparently unmarried relationship is what contributed to the second,
and fatal, stroke she suffered later that week.

Augusta had sown the seeds of Ed's madness. But she had also been his
one human connection. Without her, the lonely and isolated man
descended into true insanity. However, that craziness would be of a
special sort not evident to his neighbors who continued to see him as
shy, quiet, pleasant Eddie Gein.

Until Frank Worden found that his own mother was missing.

Although Ed Gein is often called a serial murderer, Bernice Worden and
Mary Hogan are his only known victims. Both were stout, older women -
like his mother. However, in some ways they seemed most unlike his
mother to Ed.

In the aftermath of Augusta Gein's death, Ed pondered long and hard at
this cruel injustice. In a world filled with harlots, how could God
have allowed his mother, a woman so good and pure, to die?

Mary Hogan bore a physical resemblance to Augusta but Ed thought of
the tavern keeper as opposite in personality. She used swear words. He
had heard rumors of her immorality, how she had been twice divorced
and may even have once been the madam of a brothel! Her very life
seemed an affront to the memory of his mother.

Similarly, although Bernice Worden was popular in Plainfield, Ed saw
the hearty business owner as a Scarlet Woman. He had heard rumors
that, prior to her marriage, Bernice had wooed the man who would
become her husband away from another woman and that the disappointed
woman had committed suicide as a result. He also believed Bernice
Worden had been responsible for the break-up of a marriage.

Ultimately, what is to be learned from the life of Augusta Gein? It
may be seen as a confirmation of the old saying, "The road to hell is
paved with good intentions." It is also a warning on many levels:
against "smother-mothering," against sexual repression, against
religious fanaticism, and against a life lived in a "bite-the-bullet,
all-work-and-no-play" manner.

It is also a reminder that misandry and misogyny are not necessarily
polar opposites but can go hand-in-hand. Like Augusta, the same person
who views men as crude and lustful beasts can often view women as
temptresses and harlots.

In today's culture, the pendulum may have swung too far in the
opposite direction from Augusta Gein's dogmas. Many people, including
myself, would like to see less sexual activity. However, looking at
Augusta tells us we must exercise great care as to HOW we encourage
abstinence. It is easy, yet destructive, to encourage abstinence by
inculcating suspicion and hostility of the other gender or of human
beings in general. Both young men and young women must be taught how
to keep friendships on a "just-friends" basis and how to keep romantic
relationships from necessarily becoming physical too quickly. But they
must not be abstinent out of a hysterical fear of the flesh or a
destructive hostility.

"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
catherine yronwode
2007-04-29 12:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.

cat yronwode
Stephen Trapani
2007-04-29 14:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
No, but she sure did hurt a few people, badly.

Stephen
d***@bellsouth.net
2007-04-29 14:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
cat yronwode
(Denise) No, she did not. But she sowed the seeds of madness in her
son.
Michael Snyder
2007-04-29 15:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
catherine yronwode
2007-04-29 19:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.

The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.

In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.

cat yronwode
tinydancer
2007-04-29 20:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode
Very well explained, cat. I agree completely with your assessment of the
situation.

td
d***@bellsouth.net
2007-04-29 22:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families.
(Denise) I believe genetic factors often play a role in human behavior
and misbehaviors. We are, after all, biological organisms. However, I
don't know of any real indication that it was much of a factor in this
case or similar cases. The one study I know of in Denmark found there
was a correlation between genetics and crimes EXCEPT those of
violence.



As
Post by catherine yronwode
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
(Denise) In reading Harold Schechter's "Deviant," I got exactly the
opposite impression. Both parents were pretty poor but Augusta appears
the more seriously disturbed and obsessive of the two. Also, Ed was
far closer to his mother than he ever was to his father.
Post by catherine yronwode
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.>>
(Denise) True. Rather, the seeds sown by the mother -- and to some
extent fertilized by the father -- created a type of mental illness
that led to his horrible crimes.
Post by catherine yronwode
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode
(Denise) One thing that strikes me is how often I read or hear about a
particular parental combination: the drunken dad and the religiously
fanatic mom. It seems to me that this may be a very common
combination and I wonder what the reason for it could be. Do these
groups just attract each other? Do women tend to grab onto a fervent
religiousity to cope with the problems caused by their husbands'
drinking? Or do Bible-bangers drive their husbands to drink?
Michael Snyder
2007-04-30 01:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families.
"Mentally ill families"? My god -- how illiberal of you.
Your theories of genetics have not been very popular in the
last 50 years or so, and you will be hard pressed to find an
accredited scholar who will endorse them.

On the other hand, you will find plenty of forensic scholars
who will agree that there is a statistically significant trend
among serial killers to have had certain characteristics in
their relationships with their mothers.

If you want to shut your eyes to the potential role of
mothers in shaping serial killers, you are going to have
to squinch them up really really tight. Oh yes, and embrace
exceedingly unpopular and un-liberal theories about
genetic inheritance.
Post by catherine yronwode
As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
catherine yronwode
2007-04-30 01:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families.
"Mentally ill families"? My god -- how illiberal of you.
Your theories of genetics have not been very popular in the
last 50 years or so, and you will be hard pressed to find an
accredited scholar who will endorse them.
On the other hand, you will find plenty of forensic scholars
who will agree that there is a statistically significant trend
among serial killers to have had certain characteristics in
their relationships with their mothers.
If you want to shut your eyes to the potential role of
mothers in shaping serial killers, you are going to have
to squinch them up really really tight. Oh yes, and embrace
exceedingly unpopular and un-liberal theories about
genetic inheritance.
Post by catherine yronwode
As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
I don't think you understood what i was saying.

(1) I believe that mental illness is heritable. (And, as an aside: i
think that this will become more and more obvious as genetic science advances.)

(2) I believe that both of Ed Gein's parents were mentally ill and
socially maladhusted. His father was a violent alcoholic, his mother an
obsessive anti-sexual religious nut. He seems to have combined the worst
mental and social traits of both parents, becoming an anti-sexual
obsessive violent killer.

(3) I don't "blame" Ed Gein's father for making him crazy any more than
i "blame" his mother for making him crazy. Both parents were mentally
and socially defective; their child was defective. End of story.

How you could twist this into thinking that i somehow "found a man to
blame" is incredible, Michael. It reflects primarily on your own
obsessions, and they are not a pretty sight.

cat yronwode
Stephen Trapani
2007-04-30 05:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families.
"Mentally ill families"? My god -- how illiberal of you.
Your theories of genetics have not been very popular in the
last 50 years or so, and you will be hard pressed to find an
accredited scholar who will endorse them.
On the other hand, you will find plenty of forensic scholars
who will agree that there is a statistically significant trend
among serial killers to have had certain characteristics in
their relationships with their mothers.
If you want to shut your eyes to the potential role of
mothers in shaping serial killers, you are going to have
to squinch them up really really tight. Oh yes, and embrace
exceedingly unpopular and un-liberal theories about
genetic inheritance.
Post by catherine yronwode
As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
I don't think you understood what i was saying.
(1) I believe that mental illness is heritable. (And, as an aside: i
think that this will become more and more obvious as genetic science advances.)
(2) I believe that both of Ed Gein's parents were mentally ill and
socially maladhusted. His father was a violent alcoholic, his mother an
obsessive anti-sexual religious nut. He seems to have combined the worst
mental and social traits of both parents, becoming an anti-sexual
obsessive violent killer.
(3) I don't "blame" Ed Gein's father for making him crazy any more than
i "blame" his mother for making him crazy. Both parents were mentally
and socially defective; their child was defective. End of story.
Nonsense. The story hasn't even started. People can be driven mad and
given lifelong psychological problems by all sorts of systematic bad
treatment, in captivity, from spouses, and thousands of other ways even
without any previous mental problems in their family. We know for sure
bad treatment can cause psychological problems. Talk to a rape victim
some time. Find one whose parents are mentally healthy. Now imagine that
rape multiplied by a hundred, done by the person you are supposed to
love and trust the most, now add in a thousand other brutalities.

So we know for sure that bad treatment can cause major psychological
problems. Add to it that the bad treatment is lifelong from the child's
earliest memory, done over and over by someone who has complete control
over their lives. Subject children to treatment that is known to cause
psychological problems and there is no reason to try to find some other
cause for their mental illness.

The idea that we can raise children any horrible way and it won't hurt
them is probably the most brutal idea left in humanity. It leaves the
most vulnerable people in society defenseless. It's despicable.

Stephen
Michael Snyder
2007-04-30 17:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
I don't think you understood what i was saying.
(1) I believe that mental illness is heritable. (And, as an aside: i
think that this will become more and more obvious as genetic science advances.)
A *tendency* toward mental illness *may* be *somewhat* heritable.
Your statement implies that we should lock up the children of the
criminally insane. Google "Jukes and Kallikaks". Then go rent
the movie "The Bad Seed".

I have at least four suicidals within my immediate family.
My uncle and my niece both killed themselves, my sister
was involuntarily committed for attempted suicide, and my
mother used threats of suicide to coerce my father to marry
her. There's no question that there is some familial tendency
there -- but by your logic, I should be dead.
Post by catherine yronwode
(2) I believe that both of Ed Gein's parents were mentally ill and
socially [maladjusted]. His father was a violent alcoholic, his
mother an obsessive anti-sexual religious nut. He seems to
have combined the worst mental and social traits of both parents,
becoming an anti-sexual obsessive violent killer.
Don't be absurd. Gein's father never killed anyone.
He was just a drunk. He may have been occasionally
violent, but most drunks are. You are stretching an I-beam
into a sewing needle to try to put Mr. Gein into the same
category as Mrs. Gein.
Post by catherine yronwode
(3) I don't "blame" Ed Gein's father for making him crazy any more than
i "blame" his mother for making him crazy. Both parents were mentally
and socially defective; their child was defective. End of story.
Yeah -- except Ed didn't obsess about his father, he didn't get
all weepy when he discussed his sainted father, he didn't KILL
PEOPLE WHO LOOKED LIKE HIS FATHER, and he didn't
display his father's behaviors -- he didn't drink, he didn't MARRY,
and he didn't (however occasionally) smack his wife or girlfriend
around. Nor did his father display any of the unusual behaviors
that Ed is known for -- he did not hate women for being sexual,
he did not hate sexuality or abstain from it, he did not kill people,
and he did not rob graves.

Face it Cat -- if Ed inherited his craziness from anywhere,
it was from his mother. You have to be in deep, deep denial
to avoid that.
Nancy Rudins
2007-04-30 21:38:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Snyder
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
No matter how it's spun, Augusta Gein did not kill anyone.

Kind regards,
Nancy
--
"Your head so much concerned with outer, mine with inner, weather."
(Frost)
***@ncsa.uiuc.edu
http://ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/nrudins/
Michael Snyder
2007-05-01 02:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nancy Rudins
Post by Michael Snyder
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
No matter how it's spun, Augusta Gein did not kill anyone.
Nice <ahemSTRAWMANcaugh> try, Nancy.
No one's saying she did.

And no matter how it's spun, Ed Gein's father did not
do as much to drive his son crazy as Augusta did.
Nancy Rudins
2007-05-01 22:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by Nancy Rudins
Post by Michael Snyder
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
No matter how it's spun, Augusta Gein did not kill anyone.
Nice <ahemSTRAWMANcaugh> try, Nancy.
No one's saying she did.
And no matter how it's spun, Ed Gein's father did not
do as much to drive his son crazy as Augusta did.
Can one person really drive another one crazy? That hasn't been proved.

Kind regards,
Nancy
--
"Your head so much concerned with outer, mine with inner, weather."
(Frost)
***@ncsa.uiuc.edu
http://ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/nrudins/
Michael Snyder
2007-05-02 03:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nancy Rudins
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by Nancy Rudins
Post by Michael Snyder
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
No matter how it's spun, Augusta Gein did not kill anyone.
Nice <ahemSTRAWMANcaugh> try, Nancy.
No one's saying she did.
And no matter how it's spun, Ed Gein's father did not
do as much to drive his son crazy as Augusta did.
Can one person really drive another one crazy? That hasn't been proved.
You make me laugh, Nancy. If you can't say "blame the dad",
you'll say "you can't blame the mom".
Nancy Rudins
2007-05-02 21:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by Nancy Rudins
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by Nancy Rudins
Post by Michael Snyder
OIC -- you've found a man to blame, so everything's OK again.
No matter how it's spun, Augusta Gein did not kill anyone.
Nice <ahemSTRAWMANcaugh> try, Nancy.
No one's saying she did.
And no matter how it's spun, Ed Gein's father did not
do as much to drive his son crazy as Augusta did.
Can one person really drive another one crazy? That hasn't been proved.
You make me laugh, Nancy. If you can't say "blame the dad",
you'll say "you can't blame the mom".
I wasn't blaming anyone except Ed Gein himself.

Kind regards,
Nancy
--
"Your head so much concerned with outer, mine with inner, weather."
(Frost)
***@ncsa.uiuc.edu
http://ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/nrudins/
Messalina
2007-04-30 02:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.

Mez
catherine yronwode
2007-04-30 03:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Messalina
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
I agree.

It is, to make an analogy, like breeding "designer dogs." You can cross
a poodle with a cocker spaniel and the result will be called a cockapoo
-- but not all cockapoos have curly poodle fur -- some have long, wavy
cocker fur. And not all have poodle smarts, either, some are typical
cockers, average dogs in intelligence. That's what sexual reproduction
is all about -- the randomness of combination.

The Geins were both social misfits, they mated and had two boys -- one
of whom may well have killed the other (never proven, but long
suspected). Had they produced more children, and had all the children
lived, we could have made a better assessment of the role of genes in
this case.

By the way, another person raised to think his biological mother was his
sister and his gandmother was his mom was the singer Bobby Darin. He did
not become a serial killer either, but he was pretty messed up over it,
if i recall correctly.

cat yronwode
8MilesHigh
2007-05-02 22:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
Dahmer is the most puzzling SK for me. What is the prevalent theory
for his preoccupation? I've never heard a good one, nor can I form at
least a bad one given what we know.

Regular mom, regular dad, average divorce, normalish childhood,
nothing sticks out that might explain a bit about Jeffrey. I suspect
there may have been some sexual abuse in his childhood, but haven't
heard anything about it.

Even after his arrest, JD was so contrite and broken - unlike the
creepy hubris of most SKs. His words on the stand were shockingly
meek, accepting all the guilt and aware that he was somehow "soul
dead" and didn't deserve any forgiveness or sympathy.

And stranger still, I sympathized.

What is Dahmer's deal? Any ideas?

bel
tinydancer
2007-05-02 22:49:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by 8MilesHigh
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
Dahmer is the most puzzling SK for me. What is the prevalent theory
for his preoccupation? I've never heard a good one, nor can I form at
least a bad one given what we know.
Regular mom, regular dad, average divorce, normalish childhood,
nothing sticks out that might explain a bit about Jeffrey. I suspect
there may have been some sexual abuse in his childhood, but haven't
heard anything about it.
Even after his arrest, JD was so contrite and broken - unlike the
creepy hubris of most SKs. His words on the stand were shockingly
meek, accepting all the guilt and aware that he was somehow "soul
dead" and didn't deserve any forgiveness or sympathy.
And stranger still, I sympathized.
What is Dahmer's deal? Any ideas?
bel
I thought his mother had some sort of mental illness? Somewhat severe
maybe? Not that she was psycho or anything, but my impression was perhaps
major depression, possibly untreated or mistreated. Dahmer's early life is
rather sketchy at best when it comes to more than a few vague recollections
by his dad. His father seems like a nice enough man, kind, perplexed. Just
me, but he strikes me as the typical man of that era, one who is highly
intelligent, but quite out of touch with common, ordinary daily things.
Still *impressions* of mine, but I'd *guess* the home life at the Dahmers
would have been viewed at complete opposites of the spectrum if you asked
the dad to describe it and then asked Jeffrey to describe that same life.
As though lots of stuff just ran right past the elder Dahmer while he was
busy focussing on his career.

At first I kind of thought along the same lines as yourself, bel, concerning
Dahmer, including the feelings of sympathy for him. But recently I watched
one of those Independent Films on Dahmer. It was a rather recent
production, sometime in the early 2000's IIRC. My *impression* of Dahmer
changed radically after watching that production. A far more evil, cruel,
sadistic side to him came out. What I took for contrite and broken came
across more as a total and complete lack of any sort of empathy. Certainly
not any remorse at what he'd done. More of a complete detachment. Kind of
like if you saw any of those prison interviews with John List after his
capture.

Again, JMO.

td
Sherman
2007-05-03 12:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by tinydancer
Post by 8MilesHigh
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
Dahmer is the most puzzling SK for me. What is the prevalent theory
for his preoccupation? I've never heard a good one, nor can I form at
least a bad one given what we know.
Regular mom, regular dad, average divorce, normalish childhood,
nothing sticks out that might explain a bit about Jeffrey. I suspect
there may have been some sexual abuse in his childhood, but haven't
heard anything about it.
Even after his arrest, JD was so contrite and broken - unlike the
creepy hubris of most SKs. His words on the stand were shockingly
meek, accepting all the guilt and aware that he was somehow "soul
dead" and didn't deserve any forgiveness or sympathy.
And stranger still, I sympathized.
What is Dahmer's deal? Any ideas?
bel
I thought his mother had some sort of mental illness? Somewhat severe
maybe? Not that she was psycho or anything, but my impression was perhaps
major depression, possibly untreated or mistreated. Dahmer's early life is
rather sketchy at best when it comes to more than a few vague
recollections
by his dad. His father seems like a nice enough man, kind, perplexed.
Just
me, but he strikes me as the typical man of that era, one who is highly
intelligent, but quite out of touch with common, ordinary daily things.
Still *impressions* of mine, but I'd *guess* the home life at the Dahmers
would have been viewed at complete opposites of the spectrum if you asked
the dad to describe it and then asked Jeffrey to describe that same life.
As though lots of stuff just ran right past the elder Dahmer while he was
busy focussing on his career.
At first I kind of thought along the same lines as yourself, bel, concerning
Dahmer, including the feelings of sympathy for him. But recently I watched
one of those Independent Films on Dahmer. It was a rather recent
production, sometime in the early 2000's IIRC. My *impression* of Dahmer
changed radically after watching that production. A far more evil, cruel,
sadistic side to him came out. What I took for contrite and broken came
across more as a total and complete lack of any sort of empathy.
Certainly
not any remorse at what he'd done. More of a complete detachment. Kind of
like if you saw any of those prison interviews with John List after his
capture.
Again, JMO.
td
It's my understanding that the birth parents divorced, his mother was not in
the picture much, if at all. He was raised by his father and step-mother.
He also lived with his grandmother, I recall that she was his father's mom.
His father might have been a Dentist or like professional. He used to skin
small animals and collect skulls &&& when he was a kid. It seems to me that
he developed a deep fear of abandonment early on. Could be one reason for
keeping boys hostage and then - keeping their heads / pieces parts - frozen,
etc. He was also disturbed by his homosexual ideations growing up.

His was *not* a "normal" childhood at any rate. I remember reading about
Bundy's "normal" childhood too. When your mother is your sister, this is
*not* "normal".

What creates a sk? What I do know is that what lies in their background are
lies. Lack of discernment of reality vs. fantasy. Early imprinting of
false information perpetuation. A common characteristic.

Sherman.
Alison MacIntyre
2007-05-03 16:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sherman
Post by tinydancer
Post by 8MilesHigh
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
Dahmer is the most puzzling SK for me. What is the prevalent theory
for his preoccupation? I've never heard a good one, nor can I form at
least a bad one given what we know.
Regular mom, regular dad, average divorce, normalish childhood,
nothing sticks out that might explain a bit about Jeffrey. I suspect
there may have been some sexual abuse in his childhood, but haven't
heard anything about it.
Even after his arrest, JD was so contrite and broken - unlike the
creepy hubris of most SKs. His words on the stand were shockingly
meek, accepting all the guilt and aware that he was somehow "soul
dead" and didn't deserve any forgiveness or sympathy.
And stranger still, I sympathized.
What is Dahmer's deal? Any ideas?
bel
I thought his mother had some sort of mental illness? Somewhat severe
maybe? Not that she was psycho or anything, but my impression was perhaps
major depression, possibly untreated or mistreated. Dahmer's early life is
rather sketchy at best when it comes to more than a few vague recollections
by his dad. His father seems like a nice enough man, kind, perplexed.
Just
me, but he strikes me as the typical man of that era, one who is highly
intelligent, but quite out of touch with common, ordinary daily things.
Still *impressions* of mine, but I'd *guess* the home life at the Dahmers
would have been viewed at complete opposites of the spectrum if you asked
the dad to describe it and then asked Jeffrey to describe that same life.
As though lots of stuff just ran right past the elder Dahmer while he was
busy focussing on his career.
At first I kind of thought along the same lines as yourself, bel, concerning
Dahmer, including the feelings of sympathy for him. But recently I watched
one of those Independent Films on Dahmer. It was a rather recent
production, sometime in the early 2000's IIRC. My *impression* of Dahmer
changed radically after watching that production. A far more evil, cruel,
sadistic side to him came out. What I took for contrite and broken came
across more as a total and complete lack of any sort of empathy.
Certainly
not any remorse at what he'd done. More of a complete detachment. Kind of
like if you saw any of those prison interviews with John List after his
capture.
Again, JMO.
td
It's my understanding that the birth parents divorced, his mother was not in
the picture much, if at all. He was raised by his father and step-mother.
He also lived with his grandmother, I recall that she was his father's mom.
His father might have been a Dentist or like professional. He used to skin
small animals and collect skulls &&& when he was a kid. It seems to me that
he developed a deep fear of abandonment early on. Could be one reason for
keeping boys hostage and then - keeping their heads / pieces parts - frozen,
etc. He was also disturbed by his homosexual ideations growing up.
His was *not* a "normal" childhood at any rate. I remember reading about
Bundy's "normal" childhood too. When your mother is your sister, this is
*not* "normal".
What creates a sk? What I do know is that what lies in their background are
lies. Lack of discernment of reality vs. fantasy. Early imprinting of
false information perpetuation. A common characteristic.
Lies (dark secrets) make great emotional/psychological blackmail
fodder. If someone looking over your shoulder knows those secrets and
is devious enough to exploit them... then any 'subject' could suddenly
become dangerously vulnerable to a wide variety of covert abuses. In
my opinion, this subject falls right into the lap of National
Security... and you/we might want to think twice about who we allow to
have access to those vulnerabilities. Does Bill and Monica ring a
familiar bell?
Post by Sherman
Sherman.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
8MilesHigh
2007-05-03 19:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sherman
Post by tinydancer
At first I kind of thought along the same lines as yourself, bel, concerning
Dahmer, including the feelings of sympathy for him. But recently I watched
one of those Independent Films on Dahmer. It was a rather recent
production, sometime in the early 2000's IIRC. My *impression* of Dahmer
changed radically after watching that production. A far more evil, cruel,
sadistic side to him came out. What I took for contrite and broken came
across more as a total and complete lack of any sort of empathy.
Certainly
not any remorse at what he'd done. More of a complete detachment. Kind of
like if you saw any of those prison interviews with John List after his
capture.
Again, JMO.
td
It's my understanding that the birth parents divorced, his mother was not in
the picture much, if at all. He was raised by his father and step-mother.
He also lived with his grandmother, I recall that she was his father's mom.
His father might have been a Dentist or like professional. He used to skin
small animals and collect skulls &&& when he was a kid. It seems to me that
he developed a deep fear of abandonment early on. Could be one reason for
keeping boys hostage and then - keeping their heads / pieces parts - frozen,
etc. He was also disturbed by his homosexual ideations growing up.
His was *not* a "normal" childhood at any rate.
No doubt about it. But where is the evidence? Dahmer was gay, but
his parents didn't seem unaccepting of that. He has alcohol problems
like many young men, why didn't he just burn out, get some rehab,
become a functional alcoholic rather than a SK?

It just seems like Dahmer could have been your average disfunctional
guy who could benefit from some form of treatment this society
offers. Becoming an SK seems like an over-reaction to what we know
about his past. So something isn't right. Either we don't have the
real info about his upbringing or his interior life, or there is a SK
gene that gets activated no matter how one is raised. Guess which
theory I back. ;)


I remember reading about
Post by Sherman
Bundy's "normal" childhood too. When your mother is your sister, this is
*not* "normal".
There was some suggestion that his grandfather was also his father, if
you know what I mean. This grandfather was a scumbag, yet Bundy had a
connection there until his mother moved him across the country with
her new family where Bundy was the bastard outsider.

There are boatloads of info to formulate many theories on the creation
of Bundy. As much as he liked to think he was soooo unique and sooo
smart, he's pretty textbook and banal as an SK. If he hadn't escaped
a couple of jails, and been a jackass in the courtroom, he'd just be
another David Berkowitz.
Post by Sherman
What creates a sk? What I do know is that what lies in their background are
lies. Lack of discernment of reality vs. fantasy. Early imprinting of
false information perpetuation. A common characteristic.
I've warmed up to your theories on secrets and lies inside families
and its effects on the kids growing up in this dynamic. It took some
personal reflection to realize how devastating the total commitment to
a Family Secret can be.

bel
Post by Sherman
Sherman.
8MilesHigh
2007-05-03 19:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by tinydancer
Post by 8MilesHigh
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
Dahmer is the most puzzling SK for me. What is the prevalent theory
for his preoccupation? I've never heard a good one, nor can I form at
least a bad one given what we know.
Regular mom, regular dad, average divorce, normalish childhood,
nothing sticks out that might explain a bit about Jeffrey. I suspect
there may have been some sexual abuse in his childhood, but haven't
heard anything about it.
Even after his arrest, JD was so contrite and broken - unlike the
creepy hubris of most SKs. His words on the stand were shockingly
meek, accepting all the guilt and aware that he was somehow "soul
dead" and didn't deserve any forgiveness or sympathy.
And stranger still, I sympathized.
What is Dahmer's deal? Any ideas?
bel
I thought his mother had some sort of mental illness? Somewhat severe
maybe? Not that she was psycho or anything, but my impression was perhaps
major depression, possibly untreated or mistreated. Dahmer's early life is
rather sketchy at best when it comes to more than a few vague recollections
by his dad. His father seems like a nice enough man, kind, perplexed. Just
me, but he strikes me as the typical man of that era, one who is highly
intelligent, but quite out of touch with common, ordinary daily things.
Still *impressions* of mine, but I'd *guess* the home life at the Dahmers
would have been viewed at complete opposites of the spectrum if you asked
the dad to describe it and then asked Jeffrey to describe that same life.
As though lots of stuff just ran right past the elder Dahmer while he was
busy focussing on his career.
Since Dahmer is dead we will never know, but I'm thinking you are on
to something. Dahmer's parents may not have the imagination or they
lacked the intimacy with their son to know the slightest thing about
his interior life as a child and what effect they had on him.
Post by tinydancer
At first I kind of thought along the same lines as yourself, bel, concerning
Dahmer, including the feelings of sympathy for him. But recently I watched
one of those Independent Films on Dahmer. It was a rather recent
production, sometime in the early 2000's IIRC. My *impression* of Dahmer
changed radically after watching that production. A far more evil, cruel,
sadistic side to him came out. What I took for contrite and broken came
across more as a total and complete lack of any sort of empathy. Certainly
not any remorse at what he'd done. More of a complete detachment. Kind of
like if you saw any of those prison interviews with John List after his
capture.
Again, JMO.
td
Yeah, he had a black hole where a personality should lie. But he
still intrigues me, because even with his detached sadism, he never
acted justified in his rage or ruthlessness. Don't you just know that
John List (fucker) always believed his actions were justified, even
after he was caught many years later, even while in jail. He died
thinking that he did the right thing (hold on. He's dead now,
right?.) I don't get that feeling from Dahmer. Maybe it was an
underlying masochism in Dahmer (I doubt he raised a hand to his
killers and passively accepted his death) that was waiting for
retribution. I really don't know.

bel
vivisectrix
2007-05-04 06:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by 8MilesHigh
even with his detached sadism
Dahmer wasn't a sadist. Sadists get off on causing pain. Dahmer went to
great lengths to avoid making his victims feel pain. Got them drunk,
drugged them, etc. His point was never to cause pain. S'far as I could
tell, he was a necrophiliac, but corpses tended to get messy after a
while, so he was trying to make a living corpse, what with those practice
lobotomies and such.

Vivi
--
I wanna play with a pathetic suicidal masochist.
8MilesHigh
2007-05-04 18:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by vivisectrix
Post by 8MilesHigh
even with his detached sadism
Dahmer wasn't a sadist. Sadists get off on causing pain. Dahmer went to
great lengths to avoid making his victims feel pain. Got them drunk,
drugged them, etc. His point was never to cause pain. S'far as I could
tell, he was a necrophiliac, but corpses tended to get messy after a
while, so he was trying to make a living corpse, what with those practice
lobotomies and such.
Vivi
I bow to your authority in these matters. ; ) I can't see if there
was pornographic element to Dahmer's MO or not, given that it all
looks the same from where I sit.

So Dahmer's experiments on animals and people didn't give him a
violence thrill? The end product was supposed to be a preserved
relationship with something that couldn't run away?

I forgot about the lobotomy attempts. Not a necrophiliac necessarily,
but he sure wanted to partner with something, for sex or companionship
(in a pet or person) that had no will and couldn't reject him.

bel
Post by vivisectrix
--
I wanna play with a pathetic suicidal masochist.
Messalina
2007-05-04 19:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by 8MilesHigh
Post by vivisectrix
Post by 8MilesHigh
even with his detached sadism
Dahmer wasn't a sadist. Sadists get off on causing pain. Dahmer went to
great lengths to avoid making his victims feel pain. Got them drunk,
drugged them, etc. His point was never to cause pain. S'far as I could
tell, he was a necrophiliac, but corpses tended to get messy after a
while, so he was trying to make a living corpse, what with those practice
lobotomies and such.
Vivi
I bow to your authority in these matters. ; ) I can't see if there
was pornographic element to Dahmer's MO or not, given that it all
looks the same from where I sit.
So Dahmer's experiments on animals and people didn't give him a
violence thrill? The end product was supposed to be a preserved
relationship with something that couldn't run away?
I forgot about the lobotomy attempts. Not a necrophiliac necessarily,
but he sure wanted to partner with something, for sex or companionship
(in a pet or person) that had no will and couldn't reject him.
Seems to me what he wanted was control. He was trying to make a meat
puppet.

Mez
vivisectrix
2007-05-05 06:14:28 UTC
Permalink
S'far as I could tell, he was a necrophiliac, but corpses tended to get
messy after a while, so he was trying to make a living corpse, what with
those practice lobotomies and such.
Seems to me what he wanted was control. He was trying to make a meat
puppet.
Meat puppet... living corpse... Same difference. You're just a bit more
poetical. ;)

Vivi
--
I wanna play with a pathetic suicidal masochist.

vivisectrix
2007-05-05 06:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by 8MilesHigh
even with his detached sadism
Post by vivisectrix
Dahmer wasn't a sadist. Sadists get off on causing pain. Dahmer went
to great lengths to avoid making his victims feel pain. Got them drunk,
drugged them, etc. His point was never to cause pain. S'far as I could
tell, he was a necrophiliac, but corpses tended to get messy after a
while, so he was trying to make a living corpse, what with those
practice lobotomies and such.
I bow to your authority in these matters. ; )
'preciate that. :)
Post by 8MilesHigh
I can't see if there was pornographic element to Dahmer's MO or not,
given that it all looks the same from where I sit.
Not sure exactly what you mean by pornographic in this context. Certainly
at least one of his photographs that has made it onto the internet was
pornographic, if you lean in extremely twisted directions.
Post by 8MilesHigh
So Dahmer's experiments on animals and people didn't give him a violence
thrill?
Not so far as I can tell. He was all about keeping them around. The things
he did to corpses were pretty amazing, but he didn't slice people up while
they were alive.
Post by 8MilesHigh
The end product was supposed to be a preserved relationship with
something that couldn't run away?
Appears so to me. Dahmer is one of the most interesting SKs to me. I've
studied everything I could about him. His kinks didn't match mine, but he
still fascinated me. And he waited until they were dead to do the really
strange things he did, like skinning them and such. Everything he did to
them while they were alive was specific to an end, the end being to keep
them with him, preferably with no personality to get in the way of the
"relationship".
Post by 8MilesHigh
I forgot about the lobotomy attempts. Not a necrophiliac necessarily,
but he sure wanted to partner with something, for sex or companionship
(in a pet or person) that had no will and couldn't reject him.
Exactly. I think the reason I identify him as a necrophiliac is because he
was so fascinated wtih the corpses, and did such strange and twisted
things with the corpses. And supposedly he had sex with the corpses, just
like Nielson, who also fascinated me.

Vivi
--
I wanna play with a pathetic suicidal masochist.
Stephen Trapani
2007-05-03 01:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by 8MilesHigh
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
Mez
Dahmer is the most puzzling SK for me. What is the prevalent theory
for his preoccupation? I've never heard a good one, nor can I form at
least a bad one given what we know.
Regular mom, regular dad, average divorce, normalish childhood,
nothing sticks out that might explain a bit about Jeffrey. I suspect
there may have been some sexual abuse in his childhood, but haven't
heard anything about it.
Even after his arrest, JD was so contrite and broken - unlike the
creepy hubris of most SKs. His words on the stand were shockingly
meek, accepting all the guilt and aware that he was somehow "soul
dead" and didn't deserve any forgiveness or sympathy.
And stranger still, I sympathized.
What is Dahmer's deal? Any ideas?
The program I saw about him talked about a great deal of contention
between his mother and father when he was young. He said it was very
hard on him.

Stephen
Alison MacIntyre
2007-05-03 04:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Messalina
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
During an interview the two did with Stone Philips, I was not
surprised to learn that Jeffrey's father had long fantasized about
extreme violence and murder. He was also a victim of bad dreams. That
for me, threw a red flag up on several possibilities. Also, Jeffrey's
parents had long been divorced and Jeffrey's mother had remarried. It
was my understanding that she had not been involved in Jeffrey's life
since the divorce. I missed alot of the interview, so I never did
learn if Jeffrey ever had any other influencial women in his life.
Post by Messalina
Mez
Anne
2007-05-03 17:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alison MacIntyre
Post by Messalina
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
During an interview the two did with Stone Philips, I was not
surprised to learn that Jeffrey's father had long fantasized about
extreme violence and murder. He was also a victim of bad dreams. That
for me, threw a red flag up on several possibilities. Also, Jeffrey's
parents had long been divorced and Jeffrey's mother had remarried. It
was my understanding that she had not been involved in Jeffrey's life
since the divorce. I missed alot of the interview, so I never did
learn if Jeffrey ever had any other influencial women in his life.
Post by Messalina
Mez- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I saw that interview with Stone Phillips too. No it did not talk about
any other influential women in Dahmer's life. What I thought was
strange was that when Stone mentioned violence in the family, Dahmer's
mom kinda freaked out and told Stone that she wasn't going to discuss
some things and I think asked if the cameras were rolling? What was
that about?
Alison MacIntyre
2007-05-03 17:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anne
Post by Alison MacIntyre
Post by Messalina
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
During an interview the two did with Stone Philips, I was not
surprised to learn that Jeffrey's father had long fantasized about
extreme violence and murder. He was also a victim of bad dreams. That
for me, threw a red flag up on several possibilities. Also, Jeffrey's
parents had long been divorced and Jeffrey's mother had remarried. It
was my understanding that she had not been involved in Jeffrey's life
since the divorce. I missed alot of the interview, so I never did
learn if Jeffrey ever had any other influencial women in his life.
Post by Messalina
Mez- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I saw that interview with Stone Phillips too. No it did not talk about
any other influential women in Dahmer's life. What I thought was
strange was that when Stone mentioned violence in the family, Dahmer's
mom kinda freaked out and told Stone that she wasn't going to discuss
some things and I think asked if the cameras were rolling? What was
that about?
No idea. It would be nice if that interview aired again sometime in
the near future... because at the time, I was busy multitasking and
unable to devote my undivided attention.
tinydancer
2007-05-03 17:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alison MacIntyre
Post by Anne
Post by Alison MacIntyre
Post by Messalina
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by Michael Snyder
Post by catherine yronwode
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
Augusta Gein, the woman who drove a man Psycho
By
Denise Noe
[snip]
Post by d***@bellsouth.net
"Just Say No" can turn into its own dangerous form of obsession as
shown by the peculiarly one-track mind of Augusta Gein.
Augusta Gein never killed anyone.
What's your point, Cat?
My point is that Ed Gein was probably psychologically disturbed due to
genetic factors. I advocate for nature over nurture in most of these
cases of mentally ill killers who come from mentally ill families. As
anyone knows who has read about the case knows, although his mother was
peculiar and socially maladjusted, the more mentally imbalanced of his
parents was actually his alcoholic, violent father, not his religiously
obsessive mother.
The article painted a picture of the social extension of his mother's
anti-sexual beliefs somehow causing the son to become a grave-robber and
a killer, and even mentions "smother-mothering" as a factor, when it is
obvious that the mother had no violent tendencies, but the *father* did.
Had Ed Gein only followed in his mother's foosteps -- had her mental
illness been the only factor -- he would not have killed.
In my opinion, fixing the sole blame on the mother's social oddness when
her son became a violent killer is unreasonable because it is obvious to
me that a combination of genetically-mediated factors -- the mother's
obsessiveness PLUS the father's violence -- is what led Ed Gein's mental
illness to take the peculiar form that it did.
cat yronwode- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
During an interview the two did with Stone Philips, I was not
surprised to learn that Jeffrey's father had long fantasized about
extreme violence and murder. He was also a victim of bad dreams. That
for me, threw a red flag up on several possibilities. Also, Jeffrey's
parents had long been divorced and Jeffrey's mother had remarried. It
was my understanding that she had not been involved in Jeffrey's life
since the divorce. I missed alot of the interview, so I never did
learn if Jeffrey ever had any other influencial women in his life.
Post by Messalina
Mez- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I saw that interview with Stone Phillips too. No it did not talk about
any other influential women in Dahmer's life. What I thought was
strange was that when Stone mentioned violence in the family, Dahmer's
mom kinda freaked out and told Stone that she wasn't going to discuss
some things and I think asked if the cameras were rolling? What was
that about?
No idea. It would be nice if that interview aired again sometime in
the near future... because at the time, I was busy multitasking and
unable to devote my undivided attention.
I could be remembering this all wrong, but I *thought* when I heard the
background story of Dahmer's life, his parents were still married when he
was in high school? Or at least a teen? I seem to remember his dad saying
something about himself 'moving into a motel' or some such thing. And that
jeffrey was left home alone by his mother a lot. That she 'went off to
visit relatives or something'. And that's when the first murder took place.
The one where he picked up a kid hitch-hiking, took him home and later
killed him?

Another thing, again, I could be wrong, but I thought his dad was some sort
of engineer?


td
8MilesHigh
2007-05-03 19:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alison MacIntyre
Post by Messalina
I don't think there is a single source of this peculiar sort of
madness, but rather a malign convergence of factors. For instance,
several serial killers had the experience of being raised believing
their biological mother was their sister and their grandmother their
mom; but so did Jack Nicholson. Have you ever seen an interview
Jeffrey Dahmer's dad? He's a pleasant, average sort of guy, honestly
baffled by what happened to his son. Its like a cominbation lock;
each number must fall into place to open up this kind of crazy.
During an interview the two did with Stone Philips, I was not
surprised to learn that Jeffrey's father had long fantasized about
extreme violence and murder. He was also a victim of bad dreams. That
for me, threw a red flag up on several possibilities.
Now THAT is something that never remains hidden within the private
family dynamic. If Mr. Dahmer acted out these dreams IRL, let's say
unknowingly upon animals, that might explain why Jeffrey could be
cruel to animals without remorse. Dad might not even remember the
incidents of unconscious cruelty, but kids pick up on that sort of
thing.




Also, Jeffrey's
Post by Alison MacIntyre
parents had long been divorced and Jeffrey's mother had remarried. It
was my understanding that she had not been involved in Jeffrey's life
since the divorce. I missed alot of the interview, so I never did
learn if Jeffrey ever had any other influencial women in his life.
Post by Messalina
Mez
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